Thanks Mike. I land in a place similar to you, and appreciate your sensitivity to cultural imperialism and hypocrisy as a meat-eater. It occurs to me that if the bulls for fighting are indeed raised away from humans, they might have a far better quality of life than so many factory farm animals...
Good point, Doug - yes, I expect their quality of life is (probably far) better than that of animals farmed for food. The ethical issues are complex, to be sure. But, I still believe that the manner in which they die is too cruel, even in light of their lives up until entering the ring.
Hi Emrys, the origin is Spanish ("What we know now as bullfighting originated in Spain centuries ago"), but the history spans many places and cultures. And yes, the fact that the practice was "given" to Mexico as part of Spain's colonial rule probably has interesting insights and ramifications to be explored - maybe in an upcoming post! Thanks for the comment.
That is a good point, that it was originally a colonial Spanish thing. There is a small bull ring in Puerto Vallarta, and I went to one event just to say I did it (and I don't need to do it again). But I got the impression that bullfighting is done here more for the tourists. What the locals love here is bull RIDING, known as jaripeo. It's similar to bull riding in the States, except without the 8 second rule. I read that back in the day it used to be a much crueler sport-- they would ride the bull until it died. Now, they just ride until the bull gets tired and decided it's done. One bull I watched decided he was done before they had even begun...he sauntered to the other side of the arena and lay down. Like Ferdinand in the children's book, he only wanted to smell the flowers. But I would say a big chunk of northern Mexico is more of a cowboy/ rodeo crowd, so bullfighting with all its Europeaness is not really that popular here.
I don't know what's best for anyone else, including animals, and just do my best with those I interact with. I think I am more on Christy's side of I am not interested in going. When I took my children to movies they would tell me when to cover my eyes. I learned something, and I smiled as I did, and I find your blog often to be a lovely combination of the two, thank you!
Hi Michelle - covering one's eyes is a good policy! I do that a lot unless I'm walking on uneven sidewalks, which where I am means all sidewalks. Thanks for the comment and the anecdote!
I'm with you Mike in that I'd rather see bullfighting as a thing of the past, but am not here to press my outside cultural wishes. And sure, it was almost a century ago, but Lorca romanticized the bullring, at least in the context of how death was a curtain that opened, not closed, in his Theory and Play of The Duende with:
...the youth of Salamanca, recently killed by a bull, who cried out:
Friends, I am dying: / Friends I am done for. / I’ve three scarves inside me, / And this one makes four…
We have a bullring here, and it's quite an impressive and massive structure, but as far as I know, it's no longer used. I've never seen any activity as I've gone by.
Thanks for the Lorca reference, Victor. I suppose Hemingway picked up where Lorca left off in the business of romanticizing bullfighting. Anyway, maybe they should hold concerts in your empty bullring, or an escaramuza or two (hey, I think your empty bullring has inspired a future article).
Okay, a future article sounds great. And I learned a new word with escaramuza, although it remains to be seen if I'll remember it in a week. :) Thanks!
Such an intrinsic part of Mexican culture. I wasn't aware that bullfighting is now banned in QRoo.
On the Yucatán backroads, no matter what little pueblo you went through, there'd always be a bull ring, often made from chit and local woods. The history will definitely live on. Good article!
Yes, it is an intrinsic part of Mexico's culture - and still quite a popular part. I think it will live on in Mexico for quite a while, but I expect that newer generations (sounds like I'm describing automobiles) will be less and less drawn to the arenas, and one day it will fade away due to lack of public sponsorship. I think that may be more likely than litigating it away. Thanks for your comment, Jeanine!
Mike. Fair presentation. I have no desire to hurt animals. But when you defend something like this, you always get labled by people who don't really know all the story. I don't know a lot, but correct me if I'm wrong here. These bulls would not even exist if it weren't for bullfighting. Is that right? They are not friendly to humans and not really good to eat. They are not mistreated, but in fact are fed well and treated with respect for their entire life. When the end comes, it doesn't come in terror being hauled off to a slaughterhouse where they are tortured and killed to feed humans, who never get to see the suffering. They die doing what they would do by their nature. They want to fight to the death. I'm not trying to justify anything to anybody. I'm just suggesting that the story about these bulls isn't necessarily what the public relations people on the animal rights side say it is. It is far more complicated than good and evil. It's far more complicated than right and wrong. It's much more of a story than an indictment. Am I not seeng this clearly?
Hi Walter - yes, you make some good points. I'm not sure I agree, though, that humans are doing these bulls a service by bringing them into existence in the first place, or that it is their nature to fight to the death. Bulls are naturally inclined to fight one another for dominance and mating rights, but they don't normally do this until one of them dies.
That said, I think you can make a case with your arguments, especially when viewing bullfighting in the context of killing animals for food - none of it is doing the animal a service, and all of it can be described as horrible. I stated what my own position is, while also making it clear that I am not in a position to judge the position of others. And animal rights activists - yes, there is a lot of cultural bias going on in that realm (although there are animal rights activists in most cultures, and of course in Mexico); organizationally, though, I think it is a field dominated by anglo ideals.
I don't think there is a right and wrong answer to the question "should bullfighting be banned in so-and-so a place?" There is my position, but it is neither right nor wrong, it is simply an opinion (which, granted, means little).
If my article came off as an indictment, then I composed it poorly. My stated ambition was to point out that bullfighting is a contentious issue, even in places where it is practiced. And to bring awareness to that contention. I think you are seeing it clearly, and if you're not - it is probably due to my writing 😉.
Mike. I did not read indictment in your article at all. You're doing a good job. No issues with your blog. We may both be full of crap, but that's another story :-). I'm intrigued by bullfighting and I'm trying to see it fairly. I'm a retired photographer from Seattle and I have shot a bullfight in Queretaro. It was riviting. I did not see fear in the animal. I did not see an animal that was confused. I did not see an animal that was doing anything other than what it seemed born to do. It was defiant, as opposed to abused. It wanted to kill no matter what.
Your comment has pointed something out to me - if I really want to write about bullfighting, I should witness it first (my grandfather's descriptions aren't a substitute) - that way at least I could (like you) formulate an informed opinion (and maybe dial down my full-of-crapness a bit, lol).
That's a fair statement. Seeing it a couple times changed things for me. Reading Hemingway first helped a lot. Seeing how the bulls are raised helped a lot. Trying to understand the rationalizations, when it comes to sudden, and violent life and death issues - that's another issue altogether. You're doing a great job Mike. Carry on.
Thanks Mike. I land in a place similar to you, and appreciate your sensitivity to cultural imperialism and hypocrisy as a meat-eater. It occurs to me that if the bulls for fighting are indeed raised away from humans, they might have a far better quality of life than so many factory farm animals...
You bring up an interesting paradox Doug!
Good point, Doug - yes, I expect their quality of life is (probably far) better than that of animals farmed for food. The ethical issues are complex, to be sure. But, I still believe that the manner in which they die is too cruel, even in light of their lives up until entering the ring.
Yes, Mike, I concur. It strikes me how the issues are consistently more complex than my mind wishes them to be!
My coffee maker is more complex than my mind can handle - I'll write about that next!
isn't the history of bullfighting Spanish, not indigenous Mexican, in origin? I feel like there is something interesting there as well.
Hi Emrys, the origin is Spanish ("What we know now as bullfighting originated in Spain centuries ago"), but the history spans many places and cultures. And yes, the fact that the practice was "given" to Mexico as part of Spain's colonial rule probably has interesting insights and ramifications to be explored - maybe in an upcoming post! Thanks for the comment.
That is a good point, that it was originally a colonial Spanish thing. There is a small bull ring in Puerto Vallarta, and I went to one event just to say I did it (and I don't need to do it again). But I got the impression that bullfighting is done here more for the tourists. What the locals love here is bull RIDING, known as jaripeo. It's similar to bull riding in the States, except without the 8 second rule. I read that back in the day it used to be a much crueler sport-- they would ride the bull until it died. Now, they just ride until the bull gets tired and decided it's done. One bull I watched decided he was done before they had even begun...he sauntered to the other side of the arena and lay down. Like Ferdinand in the children's book, he only wanted to smell the flowers. But I would say a big chunk of northern Mexico is more of a cowboy/ rodeo crowd, so bullfighting with all its Europeaness is not really that popular here.
Do they actually still use that PV bull ring? I thought it was a glorified parking lot 😅
I don't know what's best for anyone else, including animals, and just do my best with those I interact with. I think I am more on Christy's side of I am not interested in going. When I took my children to movies they would tell me when to cover my eyes. I learned something, and I smiled as I did, and I find your blog often to be a lovely combination of the two, thank you!
Hi Michelle - covering one's eyes is a good policy! I do that a lot unless I'm walking on uneven sidewalks, which where I am means all sidewalks. Thanks for the comment and the anecdote!
I'm with you Mike in that I'd rather see bullfighting as a thing of the past, but am not here to press my outside cultural wishes. And sure, it was almost a century ago, but Lorca romanticized the bullring, at least in the context of how death was a curtain that opened, not closed, in his Theory and Play of The Duende with:
...the youth of Salamanca, recently killed by a bull, who cried out:
Friends, I am dying: / Friends I am done for. / I’ve three scarves inside me, / And this one makes four…
We have a bullring here, and it's quite an impressive and massive structure, but as far as I know, it's no longer used. I've never seen any activity as I've gone by.
Thanks for the Lorca reference, Victor. I suppose Hemingway picked up where Lorca left off in the business of romanticizing bullfighting. Anyway, maybe they should hold concerts in your empty bullring, or an escaramuza or two (hey, I think your empty bullring has inspired a future article).
Okay, a future article sounds great. And I learned a new word with escaramuza, although it remains to be seen if I'll remember it in a week. :) Thanks!
Such an intrinsic part of Mexican culture. I wasn't aware that bullfighting is now banned in QRoo.
On the Yucatán backroads, no matter what little pueblo you went through, there'd always be a bull ring, often made from chit and local woods. The history will definitely live on. Good article!
Yes, it is an intrinsic part of Mexico's culture - and still quite a popular part. I think it will live on in Mexico for quite a while, but I expect that newer generations (sounds like I'm describing automobiles) will be less and less drawn to the arenas, and one day it will fade away due to lack of public sponsorship. I think that may be more likely than litigating it away. Thanks for your comment, Jeanine!
Very welcome. I love the history of Mexico.
Mike. Fair presentation. I have no desire to hurt animals. But when you defend something like this, you always get labled by people who don't really know all the story. I don't know a lot, but correct me if I'm wrong here. These bulls would not even exist if it weren't for bullfighting. Is that right? They are not friendly to humans and not really good to eat. They are not mistreated, but in fact are fed well and treated with respect for their entire life. When the end comes, it doesn't come in terror being hauled off to a slaughterhouse where they are tortured and killed to feed humans, who never get to see the suffering. They die doing what they would do by their nature. They want to fight to the death. I'm not trying to justify anything to anybody. I'm just suggesting that the story about these bulls isn't necessarily what the public relations people on the animal rights side say it is. It is far more complicated than good and evil. It's far more complicated than right and wrong. It's much more of a story than an indictment. Am I not seeng this clearly?
Hi Walter - yes, you make some good points. I'm not sure I agree, though, that humans are doing these bulls a service by bringing them into existence in the first place, or that it is their nature to fight to the death. Bulls are naturally inclined to fight one another for dominance and mating rights, but they don't normally do this until one of them dies.
That said, I think you can make a case with your arguments, especially when viewing bullfighting in the context of killing animals for food - none of it is doing the animal a service, and all of it can be described as horrible. I stated what my own position is, while also making it clear that I am not in a position to judge the position of others. And animal rights activists - yes, there is a lot of cultural bias going on in that realm (although there are animal rights activists in most cultures, and of course in Mexico); organizationally, though, I think it is a field dominated by anglo ideals.
I don't think there is a right and wrong answer to the question "should bullfighting be banned in so-and-so a place?" There is my position, but it is neither right nor wrong, it is simply an opinion (which, granted, means little).
If my article came off as an indictment, then I composed it poorly. My stated ambition was to point out that bullfighting is a contentious issue, even in places where it is practiced. And to bring awareness to that contention. I think you are seeing it clearly, and if you're not - it is probably due to my writing 😉.
Mike. I did not read indictment in your article at all. You're doing a good job. No issues with your blog. We may both be full of crap, but that's another story :-). I'm intrigued by bullfighting and I'm trying to see it fairly. I'm a retired photographer from Seattle and I have shot a bullfight in Queretaro. It was riviting. I did not see fear in the animal. I did not see an animal that was confused. I did not see an animal that was doing anything other than what it seemed born to do. It was defiant, as opposed to abused. It wanted to kill no matter what.
Your comment has pointed something out to me - if I really want to write about bullfighting, I should witness it first (my grandfather's descriptions aren't a substitute) - that way at least I could (like you) formulate an informed opinion (and maybe dial down my full-of-crapness a bit, lol).
Thanks for the comment, Walter!
That's a fair statement. Seeing it a couple times changed things for me. Reading Hemingway first helped a lot. Seeing how the bulls are raised helped a lot. Trying to understand the rationalizations, when it comes to sudden, and violent life and death issues - that's another issue altogether. You're doing a great job Mike. Carry on.
All I know about my stance is that I have no interest in going to one. I can barely watch PG movies where animals suffer!
Yeah, sounds like you should stay away from the bull rings!